[CatWoman34]

This was brought up on the official boards about a month or so ago, and I wanted to bring it up here as well.

Is it time to begin considering firing PDB and his coaching staff? Should we just keep PDB and fire his assistants? Or is it a matter of a talented coach having crappy pieces to work with?

If this season ends in a disappointing manner, do you fire the coach and try to start fresh again? Or is it better to keep PDB because you believe he is a talented coach, and that it's miles better to have the stability?

I don't think PDB is fully to blame for this year- of course he shoulders responsibility, these guys have come out flat a whole bunch of times, and many times I question his choices for ice time, etc. But in the long run, I think he's a great coach and I love the system he preaches. When we stick to his system (puck possesion, driving hard to the net, working as a unit) we win. It's when we fall into bad habits that we begin to suck again (poor passing, bad PP, not generating offense).

But what do you guys also think?

[Imber]

Well, the one thing that isn't even debatable is firing the assistants. It's insane that Mike Kitchen and his horrible defensive system that has put us dead last in shots again season after season is still around. But apparently they all "love" him and there's no indication a move will ever be made. Jim Hulton needs to go after the abysmal special teams showing (and my friend says they don't even practice power plays and penalty killing at practices). Again though, nothing has been mentioned about replacing him.

The new owners preached accountability, but it appears to be the same ole' BS with how things are going. The one thing that is so frustrating is just how different this team is than last year's. Last year we fought hard, stole points in the last minute of games, held onto leads at an unprecedented rate, and didn't lose back to back in regulation during the 2009 part of the season. And of course we picked the one season where the East was incredible and barely missed out. I guarantee 93 points would get us in this year, but we'd be lucky to hit 80. We've completely reverted back to the days of JM, where we are the team blowing games in the final seconds, we're too soft to play against, and third period leads are lost more often than they are held onto.

But is that DeBoer's fault? He certainly has to shoulder some blame, but look at how bad some of the players we have are. Despite the fact that we're getting career years out of the top line, we're doing this much worse.

Olesz - 20 points and -5 (Not bad if he wasn't making over 3 mil. and playing on the 2nd line usually)

Campbell - no goals and 7 assists with a -7 (NO goals in 34 games)

Kreps - 1 goal and 5 assists with a -9

Tarnasky - nothing at all in 4 games (not much of a window)

We have a grand total of 6 players in the plus side of plus/minus, including three at +1. Part of the problem is we have about 7 players in our starting lineup of forwards that would be hard pressed to crack another team's lineup. Campbell, Kreps, Tarnasky, and Oreskovich (I like him though) would all be in the minors or on the bench. Moore, Dvorak, Stillman and Olesz would all be in minor 4th line or MAYBE third line duties, instead of being forced into secondary scoring roles. This team is really hurting for a true goal scorer. Every time you see a guy like Gaborik or Kessel take a shot, it's always a wicked one that comes off crazy and has a chance to go in. All of our shots go right to the goalie's chest. There's no creativity and it's terrible hockey at the moment.

Personally, I'd give DeBoer one more year with new assistant's and preferably a better roster.

[therattrick.com]

I would agree that DeBoer is partly to blame for the current state of the team. As we have seen many times the team has come out to start a game slowly and uninterested, or had a good or decent start only to be unable to finish. While no lead is safe any more, we certainly lack a killer instinct.

As for the assistants, there is without a doubt that they should be let go. Kitchen's system whatever it is hasn't worked since he came here, so get rid of him. As for Jim Hulton, he's one of DeBoer's boys, and I don't think he's on the outs.

The biggest source of the issue is the lack of talent on the roster. DeBoer is being asked to squeeze blood out of a puck two years running and it's just not going to work. Without an infusion of a highly skilled player or 2 this roster isn't made for the playoffs, even if Booth returns.

We must acquire a goal scorer and find a way to acquire a real bruising defenceman, that has enough talent to play 20 minutes a night.
I realize that these commodities are hard to come by, but if this organization is serious about making the playoffs anytime soon, they must be willing to pull the trigger.

Nine consecutive years of not making the playoffs and we don't have one superstar? How does that happen?
I heard Randy Sexton on HockeyCentral earlier this week, and what scares me is that they really like the roster that they have and would probably only be looking for a journeyman forward to put on the third line???????
Yikes, it's not like were in the playoffs and just need a vet to hold things together.

The mindset of the organization has to change. We were promised accountability and that things would be different. So far, I don't see it.

There is not enough pressure to win. Amazing that with all the changes, that has been and still is the issue.

This point has been edited by therattrick.com: 08 January 2010 - 01:42 PM

[sharkdivmstr]

I don't have a problem with our defenders, I have a problem with the defensive system. PDB still likes them to jump up on the play and while that may be fine for someone like Ballard or Koistinen (if he ever plays), Allen, McCabe, and Leopold are too damn slow to run that system. We have quality defenders, they aren't being used correctly.

As far as forwards go, we don't need a stupidstar and I don't think it would make a difference in PDB's system. Stupidstars fill seats, they don't mean you do well or even make the playoffs. Need examples? ATL (Kovie), Tampa (LeCavalier, St. Louie, Stamkos now), Carolina (Staal, Ward), NYR (ANYONE they have tried to purchase: Gomez, Drury, Gaborik, Redden as a defender, etc.), Anaheim (Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry), Edmonton (Souray), Phillie (Hartnell, Pronger, Gagne, Richards, Carter, Timmonen, Emery) & Minnesota (Havlat). Want to keep going? Also, with the Minnesota example, you can pay 7, 8, 9 mil/season but if your stupidstar gets hurt, you're still screwed. You can purchase talent, but that doesn't mean you'll get a return on your investment. All these names (except maybe one or two) are bigger than any Panther player. Yet, we sit right in the middle of the pack with all of them. What you need is a coaching staff who can use that talent properly.

I believe in PDB. His coaching staff, not so much. Yes, the staff needs to be wiped out, but PDB needs to see that too. They aren't working and its his job to ensure they do. If he doesn't smarten up, the axe will fall on him because of them. But, he needs guys who can play and his players aren't producing. We all know Shitstain (Campbell gets his old name back) sucks. He has for years. One good season doesn't mean squat. Kreps & Olesz...we had high hopes for both. I NEVER thought either would be 2nd line material, but I thought they would be great shut down guys. They aren't developing.

Stillman is fine. They guy has been a damn gem! Even with his age and injuries, he's got 17pts in 25 games and he's a +2. This shitty thing is, he's paid about the same as Olesz! We need more gems like him. Reino, same thing...31 pts in 45 games and a +11. He also cost about as much as Olesz. Why everyone wants a stupidstar is beyond me. They can be shut down by 1 good D-man. But we need to have our scouts go out and find more quiet, productive guys like Stillman & Reino. I'll take 3 60+ point guys like them over 1 90+ point guy for the same price. Yes, stupidstars will fill seats, but that still doesn't get you into the playoffs.

[Imber]

The one common thing about all those teams you mentioned though is that they've all made the playoffs more recently and more often than the Panthers. Not saying I'm 100% for or against it, but the drought we're on is unprecedented.

[State 0f Chaos]

CatWoman34, on Jan 8 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

Or is it better to keep PDB because you believe he is a talented coach, and that it's miles better to have the stability?

I just wanna come in and make this one point. If the Devils have shown anything, it's that stability behind the bench is not crucial to success.

[sharkdivmstr]

Good Burger, on Jan 11 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

The one common thing about all those teams you mentioned though is that they've all made the playoffs more recently and more often than the Panthers. Not saying I'm 100% for or against it, but the drought we're on is unprecedented.

It is unheard of. But spending 8+ mil locking up a stupidstar can cause WAY more problems...like draining our salary cap limit. If he doesn't perform (i.e. he isn't a stupidstar but think Penner, Redden, Gomez, Drury...) then we're doubly screwed. No money available to get new guys and no way to trade the dud. The best move is doing what they have been doing, getting quality, diamonds in the rough (like Stillman & Reino) on the cheap. What we need to do though is either give up on the overpriced guys who have had chances (i.e. Campbell, Kreps) and get replacements. Spend the money on quality. Besides, do you think any true, quality superstar is coming here? With no playoffs in 10 years? You have to win to get those guys.

Stability behind the bench may not be as important as stability in the locker room. Our turnover rate has been huge the past couple years. We're just now starting to keep a similar line up year after year. That's going to play a role. Besides, the Devils had Lemaire for how many years? The same system was ingrained into not only the experienced guys, but the young talent coming up (that are now the main players in NJ).

[therattrick.com]

The New Jersey Devils experience in stability has been made by having the right people in the front office and the right scouts. While coaching for them has been fairly consistent it's the mindset of management and their stability that has given them success. In addition fo finding the right players, who "get it".

The Panthers General Manager position has been a revolving door for years and therefore so will the coaching position as every GM wants his own guy.

While I am not here to say that Randy Sexton is, or isn't the right guy,(personally I don't think he is) we all know that if he's replaced, then DeBoer is probably gone at some point, which was the original question.

That being said, I am not in favor of the Panthers going after a guy like Kovalchuk. That's just too much money for this organization to spend on one player. If he gets hurt, we are screwed.
We have to draft better, and prepare those younger players that are in our minor league system.

As for free agency or trading for a superstar, let's face it, we're not signing anyone MAJOR until we start winning and make the playoffs at least once. Therefore, we are stuck with the retreads in free agency that no one else will sign. We are going to have to make a trade to get a quality goal scorer, and I'm talking about someone that can legitimately score 30-35 goals who still has a good career ahead of him and is under contract for about 3 more years. We need to be looking at teams that are going to have salary cap problems next year and see who might be available and we must be willing to part with someone, even if it's a prospect.

We can't continue to have a 5 year plan every 3 years. It's getting old.

[ThomasTomasz]

There has been plenty of people that have come through this system. Just think how good this team could be if they still had Jokinen, Bouwmeester and Luongo, as well as spent some to bring in some complementary players. It's ridiculous that they have let some of that talent get away from them in the past few seasons. If they have not, that's a great core to be building around.

DeBoer is a very good coach, but I really do think that it is time to be accountable all around. The whole system needs to go, from the top of the front office on down. It's time to pledge a new way of doing things, and that includes spending money to keep players and go after talent to put alongside those players.

[therattrick.com]

Well spending money isn't the problem as we are at 54 million in cap dollars, which is only 2 million short of the top.
The problem is how we spend it, and where we are spending it. There are a few six year deals that we have given out that quite honestly are too long, and are overpriced. But in an effort to stabilize thnings JM the GM panicked and gave out these deals.

Again back to DeBoer, while I think he's a good coach, the problem is we have a roster of grunts for the most part. Campbell and Kreps have a total of three goals after 45 games! Who allows that? We have some guys that provide energy, like Oreskovich, but have little skill. Our third line is really not a checking line. It's almost as though we have a first, second line and two fourth lines.
The power play is atrocious and for that DeBoer needs to get his buddy Hulton in gear. The defence isn't much better as we are still one of the teams that leads the league in shots against. That is Kitchen's deal. Again DeBoer needs to step in.

All in all Deboer is the head coach and I give him props for doing what he can with a roster of average players, but the accountability that we were promised is missing.
New ownership did promise changes, accountability etc. The same lingo we have been hearing for years, yet there's nothing so far that has indicated that there will be anything new happening as the season continues to hang in the balance.

In all honesty, this organEYEzation needs to grasp the BIG PICTURE. It's not just about building a team to finish in the eighth playoff spot which it seems like that's all they think about, they have to have the mindset that it's about challenging for the Stanley Cup. It's a tall order, but unless the thinking and plan of attack changes, there's no way that we ever get out of this.

Sorry folks, I love the Panthers and want them to win etc. But I have a hard time believing anything that ownership says based on what has happened. Last year we missed the playoffs by one point. We had the opportunity to build on that and this year we have taken a step back. The team doesn't seem to be prepared to play in games and has trouble holding leads, and can't play a full sixty minutes.
That as much as it's on the players, is also on the coach! You cannot trade everyone, and this could be a case of DeBoer getting the shaft.

In any other city that is a hockey city, you would see changes. We haven't made the playoffs for nine consecutive years! For godsakes, that is a crime. It's not enough to get close.

I challenge anyone out there who feels that we have a chance as this roster and coaching staff is built today.
We know what's going to happen, they are waiting for Booth to return and if he does, or doesn't and we don't make the playoffs management will blame that injury as the reason.

[sharkdivmstr]

therattrick.com, on Jan 15 2010, 10:50 AM, said:

Again back to DeBoer, while I think he's a good coach, the problem is we have a roster of grunts for the most part. Campbell and Kreps have a total of three goals after 45 games! Who allows that? We have some guys that provide energy, like Oreskovich, but have little skill. Our third line is really not a checking line. It's almost as though we have a first, second line and two fourth lines.
The power play is atrocious and for that DeBoer needs to get his buddy Hulton in gear. The defence isn't much better as we are still one of the teams that leads the league in shots against. That is Kitchen's deal. Again DeBoer needs to step in.

PDB is a very good coach. But he is accountable for how his assistants act and I'd hate to see him get the axe over them. Campbell and Kreps just aren't working. I never had hopefor Campbell but I was really, really hoping Kreps would develop into a good checking center. I never saw him as more than that, but I saw him kinda like a Sami Pahlsson. But, its not just the 3 goals, but for a pair of shut down guys, they are a combined -13 !!! I think Olesz is finally, hopefully, coming around. I still think he's not much more than a 3rd liner, but he could be a very good 3rd liner. With him, Dvorak, and I'd like to see Duco back up on a 3rd line or Dom Moore, I think we could be better. Our 4th line could be Oreskovich (we need a nickname for him!), McArdle (when he comes back), and Big Mac/Tarnasky. Oreskovich and McArdle may not have the hands, but they can contribute enough to be a good energy line.

We really need Booth back and in form. If we have that, I think we have a decent (not exceptional) top 2 lines. Without that...

[Imber]

That was very nicely said Rat Trick. But I would go as far as saying we have a top line, a third line, and two fourths. Stillman, Reinprecht, and Olesz, while not terrible, would be getting third line duties on most teams. Their large contracts and lack of other options force them into second line roles.