[Imber]

http://frozenlair.co.../07/pack-it-in/

Quote

During each season of the past decade, there has come a point in time where each Florida Panthers fan has had to say, “Well it’s over – try again next season.”

This year I’m suggesting we all do ourselves a favor and admit it early. Because while the fact remains that Florida is only two measly points out of the playoffs, there is really so much hidden by that same notion. The Panthers are tied for the fifth worst point total in the NHL. They are eight points away from being the 2nd worst team in the league. That would be good enough to give the Panthers a shot at the number one pick of the upcoming draft, although that would take luck, and not ‘Panthers Luck.’

[Taco]

Sounds depressing to be a Panther fan..

[drscruf]

zms30, on Feb 7 2010, 10:02 AM, said:

Sounds depressing to be a Panther fan..

It IS depressing.

I think Imber/Burger makes a good point about this season. Yes, only two points out, but it might as well be ten. Who knew Horton was the true lynchpin of the offense? Wonder if there'll be the usual "Horton is lazy" chorus from the idiots at the Sun-Sentinel blog.

I don't they have to "tank", because they just aren't talented enough to be that obvious. God forbid, Vokoun gets hurt in Vancouver. Then what? I'm not sure they'd win another two or three games all season. DeBoer's quotes last night were lies. We were short some players... Why? Maybe you could have played Repik more than 5 minutes? Blowing the 2-0 lead last night wasn't a rare thing. They couldn't hold a lead with two hands, padlocks and gorilla glue. Why? Why is that?

It used to be frustrating. Now, it's just another death march to the end of the season. And, sure enough, when they have nearly no chance to make the playoffs in about 4 weeks, they'll look like world beaters and win a few in a row. All for nothing. The quotes will all be about building for next year and going out on the right foot and believing that things are changing for the better.

And, it'll be bullshit. Just like every other season in recent memory.

As I type this, I'm watching Pittsburgh and Washington. Two teams that not so long ago were playing to empty rinks and/or the subject of relocation debate. Now, they're the marquee matchup on NBC on Super Bowl Sunday. Meanwhile, the Panthers remain rooted in mediocrity and even that term is a term I use generously.

Brutal.

[Imber]

That was perfectly said Scruf. If only Ovechkin had been 4 days older...

[VanMurph]

As frustrating as it is, I have to agree with the sentiments expressed in the blog and above. Two points out, but light years away. This team refuses to step up and take what belongs to it. Looking back at our miserable season, we have blown numerous 2 and 3-goal leads, and we have failed to beat the teams below us in the standings: Toronto, Carolina, Edmonton, Atlanta, Tampa, etc. Had we held on to those leads and beaten the teams behind us, we would be only a handful of points behind Washington. (and let's not forget that we blew a 4-1 lead against the Caps in our building last month, AND we blew a 4-2 lead in the third period to them in the Verizon Center in November... It's so frustrating to see what we've become.

The problems begin with poor coaching and end with a roster replete with players being paid too much for their lack of contributions...

I cannot believe we have not made a move (assistant coaches OR players).... We sincerely need to do something soon or we will be spending another postseason with our noses pressed against the window as we try to get a glimpse of the lucky 16 as they battle for the Cup.

Jim Hulton needs to be let go; not tomorrow, not next week, not in the off season, but RIGHT NOW. Our power play is an absolute disgrace and something needs to be done about it. The 0-7 against Atlanta is only the most recent of the team's struggles with the man-advantage. This season and last on the PP have been terrible. At least last year we could depend on the PK to bail us out, but this year THAT'S in the toilet too. Kitchen is responsible for the faceoffs, the defense, and the penalty-kill. All of them are terrible on this team. We need to go out and find ourselves a completely different supporting cast. The assistant coaches need to go (except Rob Tallas). And on the player front: Olesz, Kreps, Campbell, Tarnasky, and others need to go. Only problem is: Jacques Martin handicapped this team by giving these kinds of guys contracts that are WAY out of whack with their talent levels... It's going to be a frustrating few months ahead. I don't know what the answers are, but I'm hoping they find a way to meet the challenges facing this club... (by the way, I love Campbell, but on nearly any other team in the NHL, he'd be in the minors

[Imber]

Exactly Murph, I definitely agree with everything. I don't like being so negative in these blogs, but unfortunately, that's what this team is calling for right now. If every fan sees that the assistant coaches suck and need to go, I don't understand how the team doesn't. All I keep hearing about is how Mike Kitchen is "their boy" and everybody loves each other and stuff. It's not professional.

[therattrick.com]

The sentiments that we all are feeling are now frustratingly becoming a repeat of every season before this one. There is alot of work to be done and alot of moves that need to be made. As someone once told me "The fish stinks from the head". That being said, the front office has it's problems. I don't believe for one second that Randy Sexton is right for this job, but possibly since we are a cash strapped organization, he must fullfill the length of his contract. Scouting, forget it. Replace them.

Now as for coaching, Hulton is horrible as the power play has become progressviely worse. 0-7 against a Thrasher team that spent all day traveling is unforgiveable. Kitchen hasn't done anything for this team either. While as a unit they are better defensively, we still have trouble getting the puck out of our zone. It seems as though we panic and chip it off the glass, or make a long pass. We never have the puck for longer than 5 seconds which gives the other team to many opportunities to score. Which gets to the point that we are always going off for line changes cause we spend 40 seconds in our zone trying to get the puck out.

The question(s) about DeBoer are all over the place. Why isn't this team prepared to play is one that I have. Where is the forechek that we were promised? We don't pressure anyone. The Calgary game was a perfect example of what a team that is struggling can do to shut down an opponent. They basically put a blanket over us. They finished every single check they had. There are times when I think DeBoer is overmatched. His poor usage of the 4th line and the lack of minutes that some of these players are getting are mindboggling. I also feel that the accountability we were promised has been lacking. A good general, president, leader surrounds himself with smart people. DeBoer has not done that.

I agree with Van Murph about Campbell. Any other team he would be in the minors, or released. I like Gregory, but that doesn't mean we should keep him if he's not producing. McArdle deserves to be here in his place. Campbell had a career year last year, and will probably never come close to that again. Kreps too, is basically worthless.

I said on my blog (The Rat Trick)a long time ago, that this team even with everyone healthy was not a playoff team. Close yes, but that only counts in hand grenades. We need a bonafide scorer. Haven't had one since Pavel, and guess what, that was the last time we went to the playoffs. Any correlation?

Other teams are making changes. We need to make changes. Jacques Martin has set this organization back much, much further than Mike Keenan did. I will defend that every day of the week. JM was handing out six year contracts like they were wooden nickles. For the amount of money we spend on player contracts, we should be in a better position. That has really tied our hands in trying to make moves.

Forget worrying about stability.

The only thing that has been stable is not making the playoffs!

[Imber]

Very nicely said RT. I still think Keenan set us back more with the Luongo trade. JM went for stability as an attempt to win some fans over. He made some good signings - Horton and Weiss, and some bad ones - Olesz, Ballard. But, he did build up our farm system and I think we're in a lot better shape than we were during the days of Keenan. However, the fact remains that we do need that constant threat that we haven't had in so long. I'm not holding my breath though.

[therattrick.com]

Well GB, I see your side as well. As for Luongo deal, let's face it, he (Luongo) didn't want to sign, and once word got out, the Panthers got the best deal that they could. Had Bertuzzi not hurt his back, and had Auld not injured his knee, who knows how things could have been.

I have seen the work of Keenan, and while it was a long time ago in Chicago his passion is to win and win now. The Panthers management didn't really give him that opportunity.

As for Martin, weel you hit the nail on the head as he made decisions to keep the fans happy. Keenan never does that. When he traded Denis Savard for Chris Chelios most (not me) of the Chicago faithful almost stroked out. But the hawks became a much better team as a result.

As for good contracts, Horton's maybe yes, Weiss, don't really think so. He's soft, small and continually gets minor injuries that nag. He's not a number one center, and why would he be given a NTC?

The Jokinen trade was a bad one. We gave up 35 goals a year for two d-men, which only one of which is still here. The Bouwmeester fiasco is worse than Luongo only because the whole orgainzation knew for 18 months that Jay wasn't going to sign long term. Did anyone remember that there was a deal on the table right before Keenan left that had Jay going to Edmonton for Chris Pronger? That would have surely changed things had that gone through.

End result, from an organizational standpoint we all agree that we're pretty fed up and expect better results regardless of who it is. But no scorer, no playoffs.

[therattrick.com]

Well GB, I see your side as well. As for Luongo deal, let's face it, he (Luongo) didn't want to sign, and once word got out, the Panthers got the best deal that they could. Had Bertuzzi not hurt his back, and had Auld not injured his knee, who knows how things could have been.

I have seen the work of Keenan, and while it was a long time ago in Chicago his passion is to win and win now. The Panthers management didn't really give him that opportunity.

As for Martin, weel you hit the nail on the head as he made decisions to keep the fans happy. Keenan never does that. When he traded Denis Savard for Chris Chelios most (not me) of the Chicago faithful almost stroked out. But the hawks became a much better team as a result.

As for good contracts, Horton's maybe yes, Weiss, don't really think so. He's soft, small and continually gets minor injuries that nag. He's not a number one center, and why would he be given a NTC?

The Jokinen trade was a bad one. We gave up 35 goals a year for two d-men, which only one of which is still here. The Bouwmeester fiasco is worse than Luongo only because the whole orgainzation knew for 18 months that Jay wasn't going to sign long term. Did anyone remember that there was a deal on the table right before Keenan left that had Jay going to Edmonton for Chris Pronger? That would have surely changed things had that gone through.

End result, from an organizational standpoint we all agree that we're pretty fed up and expect better results regardless of who it is. But no scorer, no playoffs.

[Imber]

Weiss brings more to the table than just points though. From what I know, he's a pretty good leader that many think should be captain, and he's very solid defensively. The team usually dies without him, speaking pretty loud volumes of his not so tangible importance.

This point has been edited by Good Burger: 08 February 2010 - 09:50 PM

[drscruf]

Good discussion going. Let me add a couple of things.

I don't recall much complaining about Ballard last season and I think one of the things that you can point to is that Boynton is gone. Granted, Boynton wasn't All-World, but the Ballard/Boynton combination was pretty good most nights last season and had many people outside South Florida thinking we won the Jokinen trade.

I contend JM has really hurt this franchise with his work as GM. The Jay Bo situation was especially egregious. I don't think you can understate how bad that turned out. The argument can easily be made that some of our obvious scoring problems could have been solved by shopping Bouwmeester earlier, if not at the last minute. And, I agree that the amount of money that has been spent on what we have is larcenous. Weiss is a quality player, but I have a hard time seeing him as a #1 center on a contending team. And, all of these little injuries are going to shorten his career. I credit him for playing hurt, but if we had the depth, he wouldn't have to.

As for DeBoer, for somebody that claims that he wants to roll four lines, his handling of the lineup certainly does not show that. His insistance for every AHLer show they can grind on the boards is great for guys like Duco and McArdle. But, when you have a guy like Repik, he's not going to be a banger. That's not why he got drafted. Put his ass out there on the power play over Stillman, over Olesz, over any of these guys that get a routine run out there. For that matter, why are Oreskovich, Duco, McArdle, Repik, et al still in Rochester? Honestly, can you say they're that much worse than Olesz, Kreps, Moore, Stillman, etc. right now? Why NOT bring them up? Why not give them 10-14 minutes? We're losing anyway. Vokoun is getting shelled anyway. What is there to lose? The whole two-points-out-of-a-playoff-spot is an illusion brought about by the bonus overtime point. Nothing more.

Changes have to be made and there's nothing to lose in making them now. Be it in the front office, on the bench or guys on the ice. It has been the same thing for YEARS and it'll be the same thing with the current cast.

From a tickets sold perspective, I'd argue that the biggest thing the franchise could do would be to qualify for the playoffs. Even if does become a four game sweep, who cares? At least they get in. At least they have a tangible piece of evidence that things ARE improving. Finishing in no man's land again means nothing. Tickets will be worth less than they are now, and that's saying something.

Things need to change NOW. Something. Anything.

This point has been edited by drscruf: 09 February 2010 - 12:22 AM

[Imber]

Again, perfectly said Scruf. Absolutely no reason why a guy like Repik shouldn't be in the top six right now. Olesz can't finish crap, so demote him to the 4th line, which is how he is playing.

And I agree about the playoffs sentiment. How a Panthers fan can say that it's not worth trying to make the eight seed only to get swept is out of their mind in my opinion. A decade without the playoffs is borderline unprecedented. Look at these videos:



And our own history.



I sit here like a crazy person looking up youtube videos of intros to playoff games just to try to get a feel of what the atmosphere might be like. The last time the Panthers made the playoffs, I was 11 years old. The last time they won a series, I was 7. And although I was at both, I don't even really remember a thing. Now I'm not stupid - I know the atmosphere in Edmonton wouldn't be replicated here, but just to feel a pulse at the BAC would be incredible. To wave the rally towel over my head and to feel the arena actually shake with noise. It's ridiculous that in a league where more than half the teams make the playoffs that I have to wonder what it's like to make the playoffs in a decade! It's absolute garbage. We as fans deserve more. Honestly, I don't know how many more seasons I can watch the playoffs on TV without actually experiencing it myself...

[therattrick.com]

Great discussion here as we all are bringing valid points to the table. Our passion for the game has put us fans in a real tough spot as we want changes and we want them as soon as possible, yet don't want to give up "The Farm".

As for playoffs, yes getting in is the first step, and most likely would not last past the first round and most likely would be a sweep. While it's great to get in, it lessens our draft position as we step up to a higher slot, but in reality the difference probably wouldn't be that great. The problem is our scouts can't draft for the most part. We did great with Kulikov, and most likely Marcstrom, but for the rest we have been erratic.

Calling up a guy like Repik and even Matthias and putting them on the fourth line is nuts. They are not bangers and grinders. They need to be put on at least the second lines. That is where Pete's bench management is very suspect.

As for playoff atmosphere, I can tell you that there is nothing like it. Go to you tube and look up Chicago Blackhawks and or Chicago Blackhawks National Anthem. Find anything that is sung by Wayne Messmer, especially the 1991 All-Star game which was at Chicago Stadium, and I was there. It was during the Gulf War, and the place was electric.

One more thing to look up, and I'd put the link here for you, but my server at work blocks it. Search on you tube for Jeremy Roenick highlights. He scored a goal against the Maple Leafs in the 1994 playoffs to send the hawks to game seven.
That's playoff hockey. And for all the years I lived in Chicago and was a season ticket holder before moving here in 1993, I was and am spoiled.

[sharkdivmstr]

I have no problem with the Olli trade. Yes, we gave up 35 goals/year, but his defensive work was getting abysmal. Plus, just like with Bo, when he's put on a team where he's not the top dog, he isn't nearly as good. He's on his 4th team in 4 years. That's saying something...

The biggest hurt wasn't Luongo (not to me at least). I LOVE Luongo. I am a huge Canucks fan, in large part, because of Louie going there. But I think Rat is correct. Injuries hampered our benefits from the Louie trade. But, JM not dealing Bo hurt the most. We could have easily gotten a prospect, top6 guy, and 1st rounder. I like Leopold, but I would have liked that deal more! Bo is making $6+ mil/season and is barely performing better than Ballard. Bo was a top minute guy, excellent skater, but with more ice time comes more points. We are seeing the true Bo now. Good, but not great.

I like Ballard. He's having an off year and maybe he's slipping a bit, but I think he'll come around. I would love to get some stability for the D: keeping the core of Ballard, Seidenberg, Leopold, and McCabe together. Kulikov (I don't think) is ready for top 4 minutes yet. Both Seidenberg and Leopold's agents have said both are agreeable to staying. The D has been much better in front of Vokoun the past 2 months...let's keep that up!

I also agree with both of you that JM was both giving away contracts (based on potential) and trying for stability. Olesz has potential to be a good 3rd liner, but nothing more. Kreps hasn't panned out (unfortunately), Campbell still sucks (sorry guys, NEVER have liked him), but Stillman is doing fine. I mean, come on guys. The guy makes about $3 mil/season, has 24 points in 38 games (on track for about 50 without injury), is a +2 and a 2 time Stanley Cup winner who can bring experience. He's a good 2nd liner. We could use more of him. I agree that Kreps and Campbell should be dealt/sent down and that Duco/McArtle/Repik/someone should be up in their place. Can't do any worse...

[therattrick.com]

Well put Sharkdivmstr. I was ok will Olli's defensive deficiencies as long as he was scoring. Not to compare the two, but Ovechkin doesn't play much defense either. Players need to know their roles and perform to their capabilities. WE had the right ideas to build around Jokinen at the time. He played every game, was virtually injury free and provided offence, and unlike most of our forwards shot the puck.

If we don't get some scoring things will never change as we can't expect these same guys to grind out 20-25 goals. They just have to work too hard. Unlike the New Jersey Devils, our system isn't that good to win games 2-1 or 3-2.

I read on another site that McArdle, Oreskovich and Duco should be the fourth line. Call them the Mod Squad. I can't take credit for the name of the idea, but think about it and it makes sense. Those 3 guys are true 4th liners who have energy and create chaos, and aren't expected to score, but can. Having Repki, Matthias and whoever on the fourth line, makes no sense right now.

Last point, attracting a major free agent(s) comes with winning and a solid organization. Two things that are lacking. Look at how bad Phoenix and LA have been and look at them now. Both teams are playing extremely well and for coaches that are real taskmasters who hold their players accountable. They've drafted very well, and have brought their players along slowly allowing them to develop. We keep rushing our young players because we lack depth. Then we stick them on the 4th line, play them 4 minutes, and get upset with their performance. We ruined Anthony Stewart by playing him that exact way. We are beginning to question Shawn Matthias as well as Michal Repik. That is a coaching prioblem, but our last two coaches appear to ahve the same philosophy.

[TML4ever]

Never give up, never surrender!

[Imber]

TML4ever, on Feb 9 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

Never give up, never surrender!

I hate to say it, but nobody truly understands this situation outside of the fans who have gone through it. I'm not saying Toronto hasn't had bad times, but with the amount of bad luck we've had and missed opportunities, it really is unprecedented.

Other fans always think we're overreacting or think that they understand the situation but they don't. We lost out on being able to draft Ovechkin by like 4 days, we got first overall picks in years where there was no real super star, we were then docked ping pong balls in the post-lockout Crosby draft because of the first overall picks that we never even used, we then led the league in man games lost due to injury for years running, then we had our best season in a decade during the one year where the East was on roids and missed the playoffs via tiebreaker, and this year we've had not one but two stars cut down with injury, including one who was having a break out career season and was injured by his own teammate. There was also getting next to nothing for stars like Luongo, Jokinen and more recently Bouwmeester.

I do think we've had the worst decade span of any team in sports history, all things considered.

This point has been edited by Good Burger: 09 February 2010 - 05:58 PM

[Taco]

Good Burger, on Feb 7 2010, 01:04 PM, said:

That was perfectly said Scruf. If only Ovechkin had been 4 days older...

He probably would've gotten picked a lot higher haha

[Taco]

Good Burger, on Feb 9 2010, 05:57 PM, said:

I do think we've had the worst decade span of any team in sports history, all things considered.

The Pittsburgh Pirates. You lose.